Response to Criticism

I want to start by thanking the Youtube user, who shall go unnamed for now because I don't have their permission to mention them by account name, for responding via comments on my video "Book Review: Exodus in the Quran" by Margaret S. King which can be seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY1dAtwhbgs&feature=channel_video_title

This is a video I made almost a year ago after I completed my comparative religion class. At the time I wanted to study the historicity of the Exodus and actually did my term paper on the subject which can be read here:

http://ozzycda.blogspot.com/2011/04/my-term-paper-for-comparative-religion.html

I considered Ms. King's book while doing research for the paper which was part academic research part personal journey as far as my own personal understanding of religion. Needless to say I was pretty surprised by the lack of responses to the video in question and also by the term paper as it appears on my blog. I realized that perhaps people were either ignoring what what I was presenting or just didn't have the knowledge to critique or respond. However I am glad that recently a user from Youtube has finally responded. I want to be clear that I am not interested in debating this subject in the context of trying to prove that someone is "right" or "wrong". Rather I wish to understand this subject to the best of my ability, admitting from the start that I am a student and a seeker of truth.

This post will be a response to several comments made by the user as the appear on the video's comment section. I do hope the user finds the time to respond to my responses and inquires regarding this topic. The format shall be the users comment followed by my response. So let us begin!

1. The user:

1, you make a claim that King is not a biblical scholar. What do you know about her? I doubt you have any knowledge of her education or experience. As for evidence, I will mention them in several posts. Biblical scholars and archaeologists now know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the Exodus never took place from today's Egypt. You claim the Quran says biblical history took place in Palestine. Show me where in the Surahs, not the English commentary. King is fluent in Arabic.

My Response:

You are totally right I don't know a lot about Ms. King's background since I only know what I read from her book. Funny I can't really find any information about her online, perhaps you could point me in the right direction? What does the academic community think of her work? Has she been peer reviewed in any history, comparative religion or archeological journals? I certainly know from her blog, which sadly has lost its content, deleted by her?, that she really doesn't think much of the current or past biblical and Islamic/Quranic academics so I can only imagine what they think of her.

I would say that with regard to the evidence from the Quran, I don't need to show you commentary "in english" just encourage you to look at any Tafsir classical and modern that indicates that Muslims have always viewed the Quran as referring to "The Promise Land" as being Palestine/Land of Israel and Egypt being, well Egypt and not Mesopotamia.

The User:

2. As for your comment that the Flood story was known in Europe and China, and not only in the Near East. Really? During the third millennium BCE? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? The Egyptian-like civilization in Ur that existed during the early to mid-third millennium BCE had ties to the Indus Valley where civilization began to stir around 2500 BCE. The Sumerians were trading with the Far East. Sumerians and Egyptians began writing at the same time.

My Response:

Yeah really! In fact you can check out this list here of flood stories from around the world from areas that had civilizations just as old as Mesopotamia. Also the question aries of how did they get the flood stories? Again, as I said in my video, I really think it is a amazing thing for King to assert not once, but multiple times in the book, that there are no flood stories outside of the Middle East. Really? Chicken and the egg indeed. Or perhaps missing the whole basket and chicken coop perhaps?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

The User:

3.As for the sacred golden bull worshiped by the Israelites, the Quran states the Israelites lived among the Sumerians. The only golden bull that fits the description in Hebrew texts and the Quran is what we find buried with the Egyptian-like rulers in Ur. Where was Abraham from? Ur. Did the advanced civilization exist in Ur during the biblical time frame? No! Biblical scholars now know that the scribes who wrote the Torah fudged the chronology and lied, confirmed in the Quran.

My Response:

Where does the Quran state that the Israelites lived among the Sumerians. Again I am not convinced by King's book that the "Egyptians" are actually Mesopotamians. Is there a clear cut verse in the Quran that mentioned the Sumerians? Also I know you mentioned it here, and King does as well, but is there any other evidence, outside of her book, that discusses these archeological digs in Mesopotamia that yield the evidence she mentions in the book. Such as the golden calfs and the stones with names written upon them?

I don't see how Abraham being fro Ur confirms that chronology has been fudged or that he came from some advance civilization. Is it possible that he came from Ur where the Chaldeans were from and still fit the chronology of the Bible? I mean I am totally willing to concede that the writers of the Torah, writing in the 6th Century BCE could have placed him earlier then their current time and perhaps was not as early as originally depicted before textual/historical analysis. But I am still not seeing how Abraham being from UR completely proves King's assertions about the Exodus.

The User

4. If you could read the Arabic words in the Quran and the Hebrew words that describe the Israelites during their early history, they take us to Mesopotamia and to the ancient Akkadian and Sumerian languages. Moses's real name was Musa. That is an Akkadian name. Ibrahim's name is Sumerian. Jacob's name "Isra'il" is Akkadian. In the Quran's story of Joseph and the ladies of the household, the words in the Quran show a Hurrian origin. Hurrians were in Mesopotamia.

My Response:

Moses' real name being Musa is only because that is how it is pronounced in Arabic, am I right? Again assuming that the Arabic equivalent is the correct one, why should I make that assumption? I can find one scholar of language saying that Abraham/Ibrahim can be traced back to Akkadian but only one scholar, the rest confirm the name being of Hebrew of Arabic origin. Moses is rooted back to Hebrew and Musa as Arabic. With regards to the names do you have any sources outside of King's book that suggest that the names are all successfully derived from Akkadian/Sumerian? Or is there a large number of scholars who understand the names to be Hebrew/Arabic only?

Also you mention the story of Joseph and the ladies of the household, can you explain how you come to the conclusion they are Hurrain in origin?

The User:

5.Joseph's title in "Egypt" was Akkadian, not Egyptian. Adam's name is Akkadian. Akkadian was the lingua franca of the entire Fertile Crescent before the "nations" that the Israelites lived in were decimated by the invading Sea Peoples. After centuries of recovery, the lingua franca became Aramaic. Ezekiel states the Israelites lived among the Hittites, Hurrians, Amorites, Jebusites, etc. The Jebusites and Amorites lived in Mesopotamia not Palestine. Solomon was of their lineages

My Response:

Again I need to see evidence for Joseph's title being Akkadian, same as Adam, I can find nothing just looking around that confirms what you are saying.

The User:

6.The Quran states that God warned the Israelites twice that they would be punished for the warfare, pagan practices, and disobedience to their prophets. The first warning matches the invasion of the Sea Peoples, the second is clearly the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE. As for your comment on Elijah, Jews believed their prophets and devout scribes ascended and descended from the heavens. The Quran states otherwise. Are you a promoter of myths?

My Response:

Interesting historical application. What do you mean the Quran states otherwise about prophets ascending to heaven? Where in the Quran does it deny this for Elijah? I stated in my video that King says Elijah died, that is false! Promoter of myths? I would say I promote them in the context of Joseph Campbell, comparative religion/mythology and Jungian psychology. Not sure what else you mean by that statement.

The User:

7.Your comment on Zarathustra shows chronological ignorance. Zoroastrians, like many sects in the Near East, were of Israelite origin and can be traced to Mesopotamia. Israelites didn't influence Zoroaster. He was Israelite. The name "Jew" describes the people of "Judaea" who considered themselves to be Israelite. Zoroaster didn't influence Judaism, as you say, which as a word was coined after the Christian era. The word Judaism didn't exist before then. Chicken or the egg?

My Response:

Well this is interesting. I am showing chronological ignorance? No my friend, what I stated in the video was that many scholars have placed Zoroaster before the theological time frame that show the influence upon Israelite religion. However to be fair, I will say that scholars have no consensus regarding the dating of Zoroaster. That does not mean I am ignorant, it just means we can agree to disagree. However I would argue that the Bible seems obvious that it wasn't until the post-exile period and during that we have the concept of the Devil and evil playing a more active role in Jewish theology. Prior to that, dualism was something that was not found prior to the exile period where the Israelites would have been exposed to Zoroastrian teachings and theology. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point.

The User:

8.All these arguments are in King's book, and yet you overlook them all and nit pick about nonsensical points. King also matches the Quran's descriptions of the inventions of Suleiman and Daoud (Solomon and David) with the Mesopotamian environment of the late third millennium BCE, not Palestine in the biblical period or at any period. Suleiman invented glass, and glass had its origin in southern Mesopotamia during the Dynasty of Akkad. The horse training originated there too.

My Response:

I agree these were in her book, however, as I stated in the video I only had time to pick a few of her points and discuss them. Either way, one could have accused me of nitpicking if one does not keep in mind what I said in the video. With regards to the invention of glass I agree that associating this invention which we know historically can be traced to Mesopotamia is a major point. However that does not mean the Quran is historically accurate. We know that the Quran refers to the ruler of Egypt who contends with Moses as Pharaoh and yet this would be historically inaccurate considering this is a New Kingdom phrase and not earlier as history would suggest. So again, I am not surprised to see this historical blunder.

The User:

9. Herodotus wrote that the original Red Sea was the Persian Gulf, and there is one sect in southern Iraq that claims the Exodus took place exactly where King describes it in the "sea of reeds" or "yam suph" of the southern marshlands of Iraq. The Quran confirms the "yam" near the "bahr" or major waterway, and describes Musa (Moses) near "Bahrain." Suleiman hired pearl divers, known in the Persian Gulf, not the Palestinian environment. The Quran describes him in Babylon.

My Response:

Which sect? Sources outside of King's book that confirms this? Or sources she uses to prove this? Which Surah describes these major waterways? Pearl divers? I recall this point King makes in the book but where is this derived from again? How does the Quran describe Solomon in Babylon? Chapter and verse please.

The User:

Another critique of your arguments: You say Canaanites worshiped bulls, but Canaanites were not known by that name during the Akkadian Empire. No golden bulls in Canaanite societies that match the biblical descriptions. Chicken or egg? The Hyksos were the ancestors of the Jews of Judaea, ruling as pharaohs between 1650-1550 BCE, not slaves. They originated from upper Syria, Mesopotamian lands. They settled in Palestine to avoid the Assyrians. Jerusalem was a generic word.

My Response:

I am confused as to why I am putting Cannaites and there naming in comparison to Akkad. Does the Bible imply that I need do this in order to fit some chronology? You might have to elaborate on this point. I am familiar with the Hysos and included them in my term paper which I linked at the beginning of this post.

The User:

As King shows, ancient Egyptian texts referring to the early to mid-third millennium BCE claim the today's Egypt was not the land of their origin, but that land was in "Asia," and that land was totally destroyed by the primary deity, who unleashed floods, hurricanes, tornadoes, and completed altered the structure of the land. Nothing remained, not even a nail, on the surface of the earth. Look at today's Egypt. Do you see the pyramids? Still standing.

My Response:

Which Egyptian texts did King refer to in the book? Also did this story take place before the building of the pyramids or after? That would probably help to determine the validity of its historicity. Also, need I take this Egyptian text as historical proof or myth?

The User:

Hebrew literature and the Quran confirm that God destroyed the landscape of the Egyptians, and the Quran states that He left no buildings, as a lesson for future Egyptians so they would know His power. Hebrew texts and the Quran confirm the structures were of mudbrick, not limestone like the earliest pyramids of today's Egypt. Egypt obviously occupied a far larger territory and lived side by side with the Sumerians. Logic dictates. Archaeology confirms the Quran.

My Response:

Which verse in the Quran says God destroyed the landscape of the Egyptians? They might have lived side by side with Sumerians but how does that prove the events of the Exodus took place there? So far I am not convinced by any of your points of Ms. Kings that through archeology any of these assertions are made valid and true. I want to point out a point I made in the video. If the Quran, as Ms. King asserts, was suppose to clarify and help us understand the truth of events, namely the Exodus story, then why did God, the author of the Quran, use words such as Egypt, Pharaoh, Egyptians etc. when discussing the story? Wouldn't it have been easier to be much more straight forward and say Sumer, Sumerian, Akkadian, Red Sea, etc. Why the smoke and mirrors so that a person only in the 21st century can tell us that every past scholar has it wrong and that these events took place somewhere else? That is my major issue with your argument and with hers.

The User:

One correction to what I wrote below. Ibrahim's name was Akkadian, not Sumerian, and the Akkadians and Sumerians lived side by side as far back as the fourth millennium BCE, so Ibrahim (Abraham) most likely lived during the early part of the third millennium BCE. The Akkadians originated from the Arabian Peninsula, and there you have your connection to Mecca. Anyone reading the biblical version of the story should realize that the Jewish scribes lied about their history. Logic must prevail.

My Response:

Evidence for the Akkadian originating in Arabia and therefore having any connection to Mecca?I agree that I cannot take the Bible at literal historical value for much of what it says, but again I still cannot see the clear cut evidence that King claims makes it totally clear that the events of the Exodus took place in Mesopotamia. I agree that logic must prevail, but logic backed by evidence is something I need.

I would just end by restating to points I made in the video and once already here on this post. I don't see how King's assertions about the language, the names of the Prophet's etc, perhaps being linked to Sumerian and Akkadian actually proves that the events took place in Mesopotamia. As I said in my video, if someone's name is rooted in another language, does that prove that that person was 1)from that place of origin and 2) the events depicted in the Bible and Quran took place in that area. I would say no, that is not sufficient evidence to prove that assertion.

I would also say again, if the Quran as Ms. King states, came to confirm and clarify the beliefs and events of the past, then why does God, the author of the Quran, still refer to the events as taking place in Egypt? Why this painfully obvious historical inaccuracy of calling the ruler of Egypt Pharaoh when historians and archeologists know that is a New Kingdom title and not something used by the King's of Egypt prior to that era. These are major questions that need to be asked and considered.

Having read King's blog, which again is down for some reason, I noted that she basically argues that all major scholars of the past and current ones, this includes biblical, both Jewish and Christian and non-religious, and Muslim scholars have been wrong this whole time. Yet now, she holds the answer, the truth to these events. I find this rather fishy, and again would ask if she ever intends on putting her work under peer-review. I think until other academics have had a serious look at her book, her claim that she possess the truth, and her alone, is what makes me the MOST skeptical about her writings.